Episode 35: Patrick Lum

Episode Description: In this episode, we get to know Patrick Lum, CEO and founder of AsteroidX. We talk about learning how to validate your feelings, commitment issues, not repeating same mistakes and Patrick shares his formula for happiness.


Patrick’s Website: https://www.asteroidx.ca/ 

Patrick’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3tjij8y2Xz6GPFuEP2OLyA

Be Our Guest by The Disney Institute – https://www.amazon.com/Be-Our-Guest-Perfecting-Institute/dp/1423145844

Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill – https://www.amazon.com/Think-Grow-Rich-Landmark-Bestseller/dp/1585424331

Principles by Ray Dalio – https://www.principles.com/

Posh Incredible Transformations – https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/posh-incredible-transformations/id1377517663?mt=2

Youtube Channel – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyrz1fZpMDHSfGm7t29ieOA/featured

Website – Poshinc.com

Email – tifany@poshinc.com

Episode Notes:

  • Intro – 0:00
  • Who is Patrick Lum? – 0:45
  • We Are Earth Signs – 1:05
  • Growing With a Set of Attributes and Identifying My Strengths – 2:35
  • Being Observant and Analytical – 3:30
  • The Phone Case Personality – 4:13
  • Where the Phone Case Came From – 7:10
  • My Haggling Skills – 8:38
  • Improving the Services – 9:54
  • How Where You Able to Care About the Details? – 11:00
  • Be Our Guest – 12:18
  • Principles By Ray Dalio – 13:30
  • Genetic Testing and Not Learning from My Mistakes – 14:52
  • How Do You Deal with Mistakes and Not Repeating Them? – 16:22
  • Do You Have Commitment Issues? – 18:00
  • Sticking to the Recipe – 20:00
  • What Are Your Biggest Most Beneficial Impacts – 21:37
  • What’s Your Formula for Happiness? – 26:26
  • Being Able to Feel Your Feelings and Validating Them – 28:25
  • Trying to Understand “Think and Grow Rich” – 33:38
  • How Do You Know When to Ask for Help? – 38:50
  • Which Conferences Do You Enjoy Going To? – 41:51
  • Seeking Groups of Like Minded People – 43:30
  • Working Remotely – 45:57
  • How Do You Manage Your Time? – 48:28
  • What Has Been a Productivity Hack? – 49:59
  • What Do You Do When You Don’t Know the Answer to Something? – 53:05
  • Last Thoughts and Naked Bike Parade – 54:38
  • Closing – 57:00

Tiffany: I’m Tiffany Lopez, and you’re listening to “Posh Incredible Podcast,” where I interview ordinary people who are making extraordinary transformations in their lives and for others. I believe we’re all here to transcend and assist the ones around us to grow into the people they were born to be. The pathway of awakening is a noble life pursuit, and it starts now. Hi, Patrick.


Patrick: How are you?


Tiffany: Welcome to the show.


Patrick: Thanks.


Tiffany: So we don’t do like formal intros, at least I used to, but it’s kind of difficult for me to do a post show. But why don’t you give us a little bit of an introduction about who you are and what you do?


Patrick: Yeah, my name is Patrick Lum, and I am the CEO and Founder of AsteroidX. We help Amazon sellers make more money. And yeah, I’m excited to be chatting with you because we are both a Taurus.


Tiffany: I’m not.


Patrick: You’re not a Taurus? I thought you said that the reason we got along is because we had the astrological sign in common.


Tiffany: No, we do have something in common. I’m a Virgo, you’re a Taurus. We’re both earth signs.


Patrick: That’s kind of a loose association. Is that like neighbors?


Tiffany: It is a loose association. But there’s only one other earth sign in the entire like…what’s it called?


Patrick: Family of astrological signs.


Tiffany: Yeah. And I also think my brother’s a Taurus. So also maybe the reason why we get along.


Patrick: Do you believe in this stuff? I don’t know, I think it’s kind of self-determined, maybe. That’s my guess.


Tiffany: I’ve met a lot of people. And out of curiosity, I ask them what their signs are and I have seen without really getting too deep into it, but I do see similarities in people. There are people that I gravitate more towards and there are people that I don’t, and usually they are like the earth signs. We’re very like logical, analytical, and like grounded. I think that’s where the earth comes in. Have you ever like met somebody that’s just like spacey, like all up in their head?


Patrick: That’s like an air person.


Tiffany: An air person. Yep.


Patrick: Is it ground, air, water, and fire and that’s it?


Tiffany: Yeah.


Patrick: Okay. Okay. Yeah. It’s hard to tell though. If you’ve grown up with a certain set of attributes all your life, it’s hard to imagine that other people are different from that.


Tiffany: It’s true. Yeah, because I’m going through this thing right now where I’m trying to identify like, what my strengths are, so I can like kind of concentrate on my strengths. And I’ve mostly been in my head trying to figure that out. And usually I’m like, oh, that’s not a real strength. Because if I have it, everybody must have it or everybody must think that way. And then I go to talk to other people and they’re like, no, like, people aren’t like that. You know what I mean? So it’s like you kind of are only familiar with what you know.


Patrick: What will be an example of that?


Tiffany: Of what?


Patrick: Like a skill that you took for granted. This is 100% true, though. It’s 100% true. But because it’s right in your face…it’s like for people who wear glasses, they forget they’re wearing the glasses. Yeah.


Tiffany: I think one of mine in particular is I’m really observant.


Patrick: Oh, yeah, we are talking about this, yeah.


Tiffany: Yeah, I’m observant and I’m analytical and so like, I just notice things and I’m able to kind of like piece things together without having all of the information.


Patrick: That’s interesting, because I feel like I don’t have that.


Tiffany: That is interesting. I would think that that’s a normal thing that people have.


Patrick: No. Okay, it’s not just you, but it’s a certain…


Tiffany: I gave you an example.


Patrick: The phone case thing was a really good example. Actually, I hadn’t really thought about that. Do you want to explain the phone case thing for someone listening?


Tiffany: You never explained the phone case thing.


Patrick: Okay, well…


Tiffany: Here we go. Patrick, and me, and my mom is here actually too. Say what’s up, mom.


Mom: Hello.


Tiffany: So we all are at lunch. So this is our first time meeting, been working with Patrick since the beginning of the year. He’s been…him and his company’s been killing it for us on the ads and they’re like great to work with really easy, and always like super helpful. They really do feel like part of the team. Anyways, we’re up here in Toronto. And we were having lunch and Patrick comes off as like this very like simple guy. Very simple.


Patrick: Gee, thanks.


Tiffany: Like no, straightforward, like you just like simple things. Simplicity keeps it simple. But then he pulled out his phone to show us some graphs and like some charts from our ad campaigns and things like that. And so Patrick pulls out his phone, and it’s totally completely embellished, it’s like this black case with like gold hardware and has studs on it, you know like…and this colorful…what was on the back? A dragon?


Patrick: It’s a Tiger.


Tiffany: A tiger.


Patrick: It’s very important.


Tiffany: A dragon looking tiger.


Patrick: It’s very important that it’s a tiger.


Tiffany: Are you a tiger?


Patrick: No. Anyway, moving on.


Tiffany: And it says, “I love you” on it. And so anyways, I had to ask him about it because it seemed like outside of his normal thing that he would either put on his phone or anything. So that’s the story with the cell phone.


Patrick: So do you consciously notice that or was that just something that you picked up? Because there was this moment where I get…I think you’re trying to make a call on something about my personality like what kind of person I was. And you said that you noticed the phone case and it stood out to you, which is interesting, because it is. It’s the most…what?


Tiffany: It’s the most un-Patrick like thing that you have on your phone.


Patrick: I guess so, I guess so. It doesn’t match the rest of my ensemble today or most days. So good observation, but I don’t think I would have picked that sort of thing up. I don’t think so. Maybe unconsciously, but to have the ability to, I guess, notice it and call it out is a unique skill that I don’t know if you developed it or I don’t know if you’ve always had it, but that’s like…it’s a good one. You could be like an FBI agent or something.


Tiffany: I think I probably could. So that was the first thing I noticed when you pulled out your phone. I was like, “Oh, wow, that’s a very un-Patrick like thing. I have to ask him about it.”


Patrick: And here we are. Well, I can tell you the reason. The real story is that there’s this mall here in North Toronto, it’s called Pacific Mall. It’s like an old Chinese mall. And I was really tired one day and I find that I make these kind of crazier purchase decisions when I’m tired. And like my willpower is sapped. So I was at Pacific Mall one day, I drove up there and I was tired. And I was just going to get a normal regular phone case like the one I had before. Just a white one like a white silicone never bother anybody kind of phone case. And then I saw this other one with a tiger’s face on it. And it said, “I love you.” And I thought, wouldn’t that be funny and cool if I was taking pictures of people? Like, you know, we take headshots for the company or other things, and it just say, just give them a little reminder that I love them. In like a…but like a don’t mess with me sort of way because it’s a tiger. It made sense at the time in my tired brain so I bought it, you actually haggle at Pacific Mall. That’s the other thing you do. So you haggle on price. So I haggled on price first and then bought the phone case.


Tiffany: How’s your haggling skills when you’re tired?


Patrick: Less refined, angrier, not angry, but just like, you know, less caring, less empathy.


Tiffany: So you’re like…


Patrick: Empathy takes a lot of energy. Compassion, understanding, all these things drain the battery.


Tiffany: What kind of cards do you pull out when you’re haggling? What are like your big cards that you play?


Patrick: The first thing is anchoring. It’s what they call anchoring. So usually, if you’re selling somebody something you start at a higher price and work your way down from there. But the fact that it’s already been anchored in like a $500 price point, if you really wanna get $300 out of it, that’s one thing. Making comparisons to other things or like other phone cases, other price points, dividing up the value over time. So if you own this phone case for, you know, like 12 months, you’re really only paying X dollars a month for it like 30 cents or $1, whatever. But I think the most powerful haggling tactic if I remember correctly is just the person who wants it less usually wins. If you can just walk away and not care, I think that’s pretty good.


Tiffany: Yeah, they always chase after you. Like, “No, no, no.”


Patrick: Sometimes.


Tiffany: “Okay, okay. Okay, okay.”


Patrick: Yeah, but this lady was good, though. She did not give any Fs about the negotiation, or the phone case, or anything like that, which is a hard person to negotiate with.


Tiffany: Oh, yeah. That’s very hard. Very, very hard. So I actually think it’s really cool that you thought about taking photos of people and then what they might be looking at when they’re looking at your phone. I think this is one of the reasons why we probably get along because that’s something I would also think about. Like, “Oh, this is really fun,” for somebody to say like I love you and like to have them look at something like that, something that’s cool.


Patrick: Yeah, that’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about in recent months, as I’ve been trying to improve the services and I’ve been looking at Disney in particular as an example of this when they build their theme parks and stuff, just every little detail is thought through. So much just scrutiny on rides, like they put garbage cans every, you know, 2 feet because they found that people if it’s 2.1 feet away, people just toss trash on the ground. So they put them closer. They have this like, color of green that they paint trash receptacles and things to make them disappear from human views. So they’re not overly obvious. Just a bunch of fresh baked cookies on the main street swath of the park. Yeah, they do a lot of things very thoughtfully. So I’ve been trying to get better at that.


Tiffany: Have you learned that or have you been exposed to it? And what…like, I don’t know, you work a lot, so it’s not like you’re going to Disneyland all the time. Like how are you able to internalize this decision-making process and say, like, “Oh, the details really matter. Like, I wanna be more cognizant of the details. I wanna be more intentional about the details.”


Patrick: Well, I guess it needs to…I think it probably needs to come into your conscious mind first. So I didn’t always think about this stuff. So just personally, when I start a business or…I’ll stick to the realm of business, you need to get customers first. And so that’s important. But after a while, you can do all the customer acquisition you want, but if retention is a problem or keeping people on board is a problem, then you have to see to the experience part of it. And so we’ve more or less, we have a good sort of rhythm and a cadence for customer acquisition. And so now my attention in recent months has turned to how to just make people insanely happy. Or at least try, right? I think I have a long way to go as far as that’s concerned. I’ve ordered a book, it’s called “Be Our Guest,” I believe put out by the Disney Institute where they walk through some of these things that they do more consciously at the parks and elsewhere. Because, yeah, I think if anyone has like good experiential sort of product, it’s Disney. And I wanna take what I can from it. It’s not gonna be everything, but certainly some things.


Tiffany: I always do that. Jose’s like, you gotta like really stop saying, um, elongated ums. Like all right, sorry, Jose.


Patrick: Does he get cut?


Tiffany: Yeah.


Patrick: Oh, it does get cut.


Tiffany: It does get cut.


Patrick: Oh, fancy. See, I don’t have the budget of this show, so I kind of got to just release things as they happen. We will do a live stream on video and then it just goes out cutting to the…


Tiffany: See, that’s how I would do it too. But he’s very detail-oriented to the point where I’m like, “Jose, we gotta cut down on time you’re spending on the…”


Patrick: That’s good, though.


Tiffany: It is, it is. I agree. So I actually kind of wanted to get into some of these questions, because we’ve been riffing a little bit. Okay, so we’re both reading “Principles” by Ray Dalio, it’s a really awesome, awesome book, super dense. And I highly recommend it to anyone just because I think Ray’s one of those people who has maximized both sides of his brain, he’s super analytical. He thinks a lot, but he also has been meditating for like 40 years. And he’s super creative. And he has found a really new way to do business, basically. One of the things he talks about is mistakes, and how you have to be very transparent in his company, because if mistakes aren’t put out on the table, nobody knows about them. If they’re hidden, if people are punished for them, then there’s no way to improve. And so he like made this mistake or this like issue log, which I think is actually standard now in the financial services industry, at least in hedge funds and things like that. But I’m just wondering, like, how do you…I’ll give you another backstory. I don’t know if you’ve done a genetic testing, genetic test.


Patrick: Like 23andMe something like this?


Tiffany: Yes.


Patrick: Yeah.


Tiffany: So I test positive for this gene that’s…


Patrick: Oh, no.


Tiffany: Yeah, I know. It’s actually…


Patrick: What is it?


Tiffany: It’s interesting. I test positive for this gene that says I don’t learn from my mistakes. And actually, like looking back on my life…


Patrick: That’s not a gene, that’s so specific.


Tiffany: It is really specific, but it’s true.


Patrick: They can map it to a part of the genome?


Tiffany: Yeah.


Patrick: No, they can’t. Really?


Tiffany: Yeah.


Patrick: Okay.


Tiffany: So, anyways…


Patrick: I’ll do my own research after this, Tiffany, we’ll see what’s what.


Tiffany: Yeah.


Patrick: Okay. But, yes, sure.


Tiffany: So yeah, okay, we’ll just go with it. So, lately, I’ve been trying to…and I’ve known that I know this, because I’ve made the same mistakes over, and over, and again, even in business like back in the day. Like, I’ve just done the same thing over again. So like, now I have this gene chart and this explanation of it, and it’s like, oh, you test like positive, this gene is turned on where like it takes you longer to learn from your mistakes or whatever. I’m like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like I’m trying to progress and like things take a long time. And right now I’m really cognizant of like when I make a mistake, I’m like, “Okay, how do I make sure I learn from this?” And I like try to figure it out, so it doesn’t happen again. And one thing in businesses and really successful people, I’ve heard them say over, and over, and over again is like, you have to learn from your mistakes. And so I’m just wondering, like in something that you do, there’s like ads, and I know there’s like a lot of mistakes that can be made. How do you either personally deal with it, or as a team, or as a company? Like, how do you make sure that you don’t like repeat the same mistake more than once?


Patrick: Okay, yeah, good question. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is and, you know, if I could impart one thing that I think would be useful, or of value, it’s this, because I made this mistake for a very long time, the entrepreneurial mind or someone who starts businesses, or an artist, or something, they’re very attracted by new things, new projects, new possibilities. So if you build say, so you build, you know, a software product, you’ll constantly want to add additions onto the house, or a new deck, or whatever. And the weird tension that I found that works is actually not to be drawn to new things as much and to stick with the same product or service that you’re offering for a long time. As there’s certain benefits that only come from doing the same kind of basic recipe over and over again, assuming you have a good recipe. If you don’t, then it’s useless for sure and you need to pivot, but I think if you have a road and it’s working to stick on the road. It’s something that was very difficult for me a little bit earlier in my career. And we’ll check again in five years and see if I stayed on this road, but I’ve become like very insistent with myself that I have to stick to projects, see them through to the full extent.


Tiffany: Do you have commitment issues, Patrick?


Patrick: I don’t think it’s commitment, I think I really like new ideas and just being creative, but it’s not always about that, in business, at least. I think there’s a spectrum that exists where…


Tiffany: Are you on the spectrum?


Patrick: I’m on some sort of spectrum. Where I am on this particular one, okay? Is like if you have like an artist who’s always reinventing themselves, just doing something new every week, you have a blue period, you have a period where you paint like only swans, you have this…like, it’s a little bit erratic, it’s crazy, but we need those people. Like the world needs those people. And, you know, that’s a far extreme to the left of that. I think you have, you know, just an entrepreneur, a creative person, but within the bounds of regular corporate life. So I was a little bit too far on the creative side of things, I think, and not seeing things through becomes a problem if you’re looking to produce certain business results like meaningful long term stuff. Like I think it’s important to work on the same company for years. If only because people don’t know a brand name for a while.


Tiffany: I can relate.


Patrick: That’s what came to mind when you asked that question.


Tiffany: Yeah. I can relate because when I was younger, I was all over the place. And the older I get…I don’t know if it has anything to do with age, I’m not sure. But the older I get, the more I value having it more of a narrow scope of going like really deep into it, like observing, and like improving, and progress, and kind of like just sticking to it. There’s like some sort of…and I learned this on top of a mountain actually. To me, my word is commitment. That’s why I was like, do you have commitment issues, Patrick? Because like, for me, if I commit to something, it’s brought me…even, it’s allowed me to have even more creativity.


Patrick: Right. It’s like a useful constraint to have actually because at least you have a playground to work in now, where it’s not just any possibility, it’s this right here. And within the bounds of my little kingdom that I have in the form of a business or a project, or something like this, you’re free to play around and improve things. But I think, yeah, once you have a working recipe, like it’s not like Kentucky Fried Chicken will change their recipe every day or every week, right? They have a classic recipe that they’re sticking to, and they’ll add some variants and they’ll try to expand, but the core business is still that foundation and it’s very tempting to deviate from a formula even if it’s working. I don’t know if it’s the grass is always greener sort of thing or what it is, or just like a creative temptation, but I realized that that’s not always constructive and needs to be kept in check lest you be like overextended, spread too thin.


Yeah, I think probably you’ll get better results with cognitive energy allotted 100% to one thing versus 50-50, or 25 four ways, whatever. Yeah, so I’d agree. I don’t know this could…like commitment to me, it doesn’t come from a place of fear, for me at least, like it comes from a place of, I guess, curiosity, exploration, but it’s almost too much. So I’ve had to learn in the last few years to try to keep that in check and stick to a path, and it does work like I wouldn’t be giving this as an advice, I guess, if it didn’t work. It’s my take.


Tiffany: Yeah, I like it. Thank you. What are three things either in life or over the past year that has been the biggest, I wanna say, like, been like most beneficial for either attaining your goals, or making progress, or leading to happiness, or like, it could be anything.


Patrick: Good stuff.


Tiffany: Like what are three of the biggest things that have made the biggest impact? Three of the things that have made the biggest impact on you over the past years, it could be lifetime or it could be like over the past year? It could be a mindset, it could be a realization, it could be something you read, or whatever.


Patrick: So this straight and narrow mindset of focus has been really useful, and I didn’t use to think that way. So that’s been really good. The second thing is probably just, it’s sort of like delegation, but sort of like trust in others and a willingness to guide instead of do yourself. Still something I’m…you know, I’m kind of raw on this skill, like there’s a lot more development work to do there. But just starts to sort of taste what that feels like to empower someone else to do a job better than you can, on their own with some guidance, perhaps it’s something like that. And as always, I think reconnect it with the purpose and importance of a family. I was trying to reconcile because family seems like a kind of random thing that you’re born with and it doesn’t have a lot of significance. So I was trying to figure out how much weight to put on that versus the family you choose, or your friends, or something like this. But yeah, this one I’m nowhere close to figuring out, but where to… I mean, I do think family is really important if not the most important thing. But I’m still trying to figure out why I feel that way, or what it all means. Yeah. I think that’s a two-and-a-half. Family one is TBD.


Tiffany: I mean, like, where does that even come in in its significance or its importance to you over the past year or in life?


Patrick: Well, it’s always…so yeah, I mean, I’m half Chinese and was raised with certain Chinese values, and in the Chinese value system generally family tends to be a really strong connection like a really strong bond. And the West, I think feels a little bit…it weighs more on the side of the individual. So I guess I’m still reconciling that. How important is the collective family versus personal development? Are they mutually exclusive? Does family help with personal development? Does it hinder it sometimes?


Tiffany: Okay, so this sounds like maybe the third one could be…it’s like not taking what you were given, but questioning it and then seeing how it applies to you, personally. Like so much of what we have from family is given to us, and a lot of us assume that that’s like the way to go or like the way to be. And we’re kind of like, you know, on this path, we’re given these values and we take them. And it kind of sounds like, over the past life time or year, you’ve been trying to figure out what values you can take from your family or which ones you can leave, and like kind of build your own little system, I guess, that works for you.


Patrick: Right, right, right. Yeah. I think that’s well said. Yeah. Yeah. Because the iPhone comes with default apps from your family. And until your X age, you don’t really delete any of those apps, or change the settings, or anything like that, right? So I think now’s as good a time as any to start opening those applications, seeing what’s in them. Is this useful, is it not useful? That sort of thing. But yeah, overall…I don’t know why, and I have a fundamental belief that family is just still the most important thing. But I don’t have the words to describe exactly why that is. So we’ll go again in a few years. Hopefully, I’ll have the answer.


Tiffany: Sounds good. And then you say…like, I guess, you seem like a pretty happy person in general. Is that a fair assumption?


Patrick: Fair, thank you.


Tiffany: What’s your formula for happiness?


Patrick: I think part of it is just to think of yourself as a happy person. And sometimes the body leads the mind in terms of just smiling and being positive in general. You can also build these social contracts with people like you just said that I come off like a happy person, so that’s like a little bit of a deal where I need to act happy afterwards. Or if you…yeah, you just think of yourself that way and you become like that. I think it works both ways and in all directions. So, yeah, I mean, I appreciate it. Plus, it’s like a lot more fun.


Tiffany: I think happiness is more fun too.


Patrick: There’s literally no utility in being down on stuff because people start looking at you sort of weird, and you don’t put the best shade on things all the time. So it’s not even socially or like practically useful to be unhappy. Beyond like…and I think there is a time for unhappiness, like if you feel a feeling, you should definitely feel it. You don’t wanna gloss it over, I think. Maybe that’s the third thing, the family thing is inconclusive. So maybe that’s the third thing is to really like, you wanna feel a feeling deeply especially the negative ones if it’s sadness, or anxiety, you definitely wanna feel it. You don’t wanna gloss over it first thing because then you kind of just paint over a bump in the wall instead of getting rid of it. So I think that’s a good one actually.


Tiffany: I like that one.


Patrick: That I just sort of picked up, right. Yeah, yeah.


Tiffany: How did you pick that up? I mean, I feel that’s kind of like, for me, though, I think that would be a lifelong development of skill, like to really feel feelings.


Patrick: Which it is, yeah.


Tiffany: But like, how do you pick something like that up? Okay, let’s just say that’s something that’s caused like a big shift in your life, right, being able to feel your feelings. So I’m assuming, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, that before that, you would gloss over them or you would push them under the rug, or you wouldn’t validate them. And so I’m wondering how does somebody like that even acquire the knowledge that you can feel feelings? Because first, it starts with being aware that that’s even something you can do. Like, how does that start?


Patrick: Do you know who Jordan Peterson is?


Tiffany: I just found out who he is. Yeah.


Patrick: He’s a clinical psychologist from Toronto where we are recording this podcast.


Tiffany: I didn’t know he was from Toronto.


Patrick: Yeah, he’s Canadian. So no point of personal pride or anything just saying. So he was walking through the therapeutic process, which he described as you do take that dip first, if you gloss over it too fast, if you don’t acknowledge the feeling, and then it sticks around as baggage. So what you really need to do is actually get really sad, or angry, or whatever first, you feel that deeply so that you’ve heard it out from yourself. You’ve allowed it to express itself entirely so that there’s nothing really hidden. And, you know, 9 out of 10 times you shine a light on something like that, and it’s not gonna be as bad as you thought it was when you were glossing over it.


So confront everything fully, shine a light on it and then slowly ramp back up to a positive frame of mind as is naturally…you know, you naturally allow yourself a timeline for that. It could be, you know, an hour, a day, whatever it is, right? So I think the feelings are just, I guess, what? Evolutionary signs and they’re useful, right? So if you do feel that way, why is that? And just really feel that. Which I think it’s kind of ironic that it’s a good mechanism for self-control. Because in the moment, you go out of control, but you kind of go out of control on purpose, and you feel that emotion and then you can allow yourself to do that and come back out of it. Yeah, that’s been a really useful mechanism. Even just understanding how that curve works has been like really good.


Tiffany: Yeah. So I’m also a person who used to like not feel feelings.


Patrick: Because you wanna be tough. You wanna be strong. And it makes sense to do that.


Tiffany: Well, I don’t know exactly if it was a conscious decision. But over the year, like probably past 10 years, I’ve been like feeling feelings more and being okay with them. And right now where I’m at in that journey is, is validating them. So it’s that acknowledging it and like being like okay with it? Because the part of the pushing of like under the rug or glossing over is because I’m not okay with it. And I feel like I shouldn’t feel like that. And so I’m like, instead of judging the feeling, I’m like, “Oh, no, this is totally normal to be feeling like this. Like, all right, let’s figure it out.” So, like, validating and then using that as a compass, or kind of like where my focus is. So like, feeling it, validating it, and being like, oh, I’m feeling like this because my focus is on this one point, until like after I realize that then I’m like, oh, now I know where my focus is, I know where I wanted to go. So then I kind of just like redirect it.


Patrick: Right. Right, right. You’re taking the steering wheel back. That’s what you’re doing. And oh, and this is the other thing too like is it like state management? Like if you’re angry, just factor that into decision-making where you can say, I’m angry right now, I’m gonna make the wrong decision. I’m gonna buy the wrong phone case. I’m tired. Like, I’m sleepy. I’m gonna haggle with this lady to get a tiger phone case. That’s what happened to a friend of mine also. So yeah, just being aware of the state too and knowing that you’re going to make a different decision than if you were, you know, well-slept and just you ate recently and all that stuff. Like that’s really interesting as well is to be aware of those things.


Tiffany: That’s so true.


Patrick: And in the moment, ironically, it’s hard to track that in the moment because you’re not feeling 100% yourself. So what are you gonna do about that? Just have another brain sitting on top of your current brain that’s looking down on you and says, “Okay, I know where you’re at right now. Just take it easy, and we’ll steer right out of this soon.” But you’re not there now. Kids are not very good at this, like kids, they’ll just do whatever they feel, there’s a purity in that, but you have the privilege as you get older of monitoring your inner child.


Tiffany: That’s so true. That’s so true about kids. They don’t have that higher brain yet to be, like, “Whoa, slow down.” Like, we’re just being emotional. But one thing I think we kind of touched on was this book, “Think and Grow Rich,” and one thing I think it’s really interesting is…so we have kind of like, a lot of in common, okay, besides our signs.


Patrick: I believe this is true. Besides signs thing.


Tiffany: It’s more than that. We are entrepreneurs, we are both dancers.


Patrick: You dance too?


Tiffany: I do, yeah.


Patrick: Oh, I didn’t know that. Okay.


Tiffany: Dance changed my life, it completely changed my life. And we both like to read. We both like to read the same types of books. Like, we have a lot in common. And so “Think and Grow Rich” was a book that I came across, probably in college.


Patrick: Me too.


Tiffany: My boyfriend at the time, had this best friend. And his best friend’s dad was really, really wealthy, very wealthy, ridiculously wealthy. They have…like, they drive jets and they’re like semi famous. Anyways. So his dad…so boyfriend’s friend’s family, almost like he didn’t really have like a solid family. So this was like his adopted family. The dad said like you have to read this book, you have to read this book. This is the book. This is the book. Like that changed everything for me. And I didn’t think anything of it at the time. It was just kind of like…


Patrick: How old were you then?


Tiffany: I was maybe like 20, 21. And a few years went by, and I was like, I gotta read that book. Because when I was 21, I was like, I don’t care. Like, I’m being a 21-year-old’s like. Yeah, being a 21-year-old and I’m like, wow, that guy, like, I mean, he had a lot of money. He was happy. He’s just such a beautiful family. Like such an awesome family. And like, just the kind of people who are very generous, and like very open. I’m like, “I wonder what’s in that book? I gotta read that book.” And so, that’s the first time I started reading “Think and Grow Rich.” And then I was like, I didn’t understand it at first. It’s like I don’t know a lot of what this guy’s talking about. And it was then that I started trying to understand, like trying to visualize, trying to understand what transmutation was. I spent years trying to figure out what that word meant. Like, I looked it up in the dictionary, but I didn’t know what it meant internally. And things kind of started to unravel. And so I’m just wondering like what do you take from that book? And like, what kind of things have…like have your life changed? Or I don’t know if you have anything to say about it? Because I remember you’re like, “Oh, you read this book too?”


Patrick: You know what’s weird is that in the rearview mirror of every book, like, I have one for “Principles,” and I have one for “Think and Grow Rich,” like you really just in the rearview mirror a year, two years out, you really just remember one thing about the book and how it made you feel. So my impression of “Think and Grow Rich” all these years later, and I should probably reread it, is it’s really just the fact that you can control the mind like a thermostat sort of thing. Positives, negatives, these are all under your control. And until you realize this, you’re more just at the whims of space and time just bouncing around and doing whatever. And so having a focus on a singular goal, and then training your mind just to work towards that, the universe appears to be, you know, sort of just favorable, if you do that. And if focus is scattered, it’s kind of along the same lines, what we’re talking about before.


Focus is too scattered, then you can’t necessarily get the result that you’re looking for. And the more specific, the better, also, I think. If you’re trying to be a celebrity chef and a Wimbledon champion tennis player, those two things are sometimes at odds and certainly you’ll have limited resources to allocate to both. If you want to just in the next six months become the best tennis player in Tennessee, in the youth division ages 18 to 25, like that’s…you know, by a certain date that’s something else. Specificity and focus is what that gave me and that is just a good tone setter for the rest of…anything else that you’d read or anything. Because I guess until you know what to look or what to focus on all the other information can’t really help.


Tiffany: Yeah, at that point, they’re just like tactics and you’re like…


Patrick: Yeah, I think…


Tiffany: …what are you gonna do, do with these?


Patrick: Yeah, yeah. It’s just window dressing on a foundation of focus, maybe.


Tiffany: I like that. How do you know when to ask for help?


Patrick: Often, and a lot.


Tiffany: What are some of your signs, where you’re like, “Oh, I need help with this.” Because you told me, you’re just now learning like delegation, like how to empower somebody else to do a job that you know and do it well. And part of that, I think, is a little bit in my head having to ask for help because you can’t do everything. But like, what point are you like, “All right, I need to give this to somebody,” or, “I need help like figuring out how to, I don’t know, how to do that,” or whatever.


Patrick: Well, at work before I give something to somebody, I wanna have worked in some capacity on it myself to give them a clear playbook, which they can then expand on themselves in their own sort of field of genius, and they can add on to the basic role, but I like to test out a role myself a little bit before delegating, just to know what it’s like and see how many hours it takes and what the stress level is like in that position, and all these things. So I’ll try to do that. Maybe you hand things off when it becomes too much? Or maybe if you suck at it, it’s quite possible. I’m curious in what you think about that as well, because I’m sure you have a different set of experiences. But yeah, that would be my answer when you have some rudimentary understanding, and you’re over capacity or if someone’s just way better at it than you. So what comes to mind first?


Tiffany: For me, it’s when I’m not getting the results that I want.


Patrick: Fair.


Tiffany: I’m usually that person who wants to do everything. I’m okay delegating, but I also wanna, like, get…I wanna know, I wanna set up the system and then delegate it. But like I gotta get the ball rolling and get things going. And maybe I’ve tried like a bunch of things and I’m just like, you know, I talk to an expert, that person’s strategy isn’t working. I’ve done these things, I’ve gone to these conferences. I’ve heard about these, like, you know, these ways of doing stuff. And I’m just like, “Something’s not working here.”


Patrick: I think it’s a hard thing to admit, as a leader that something’s not working because of who you are and the skills you have. And it doesn’t work because you’re you. It’s hard to admit, hard to admit for sure. And I think that’s why you may hold on a little too long. And it’s fine, right? But yeah, I just feel like I have so much more to learn on this subject as well. That’s my understanding up until this point, I think my screen is like 45% loaded on this, if not less, right?


Tiffany: So thinking of conferences, like, which conferences do you enjoy going to?


Patrick: I haven’t been big on conferences historically. Like I went to the Prosper Show, which is in Las Vegas. It’s specifically for Amazon sellers. So that’s like an industry trade show.


Tiffany: Yeah, it’s a huge one.


Patrick: And went to that, but that was…


Tiffany: I’ve never been to Prosper.


Patrick: It’s good. But yeah, that was really my…well, yeah, and aside from like networking events in city and smaller engagements not a lot, you?


Tiffany: I’ve only attended one conference more than once and it was Sellers Summit. Anyone can go, that’s in the eCommerce space, or I even met somebody who’s like a construction consultant at the last one. But they’re mostly Amazon sellers that go to that one. And I’ve been to others, but I loved that one because I’m a people person. Like I love being around great people not conference in particular attracts very amazing people, like just the most amazing people. And so like when you’re in there, you just kind of feel like everyone’s your friend because they’re people like you. Like it’s a conference filled with people like you. And that’s why I really liked that one.


Patrick: We need to start an Earth type summit. It will be low the first year, it will be low. Expected?


Tiffany: I think there may already be an Earth Summit.


Patrick: Oh, that’s not the one you want to go to.


Tiffany: I do wanna start…like I am working on building groups, one thing that has been difficult for me over the past year is not being around like-minded people, like enough like-minded people. And so like I’ve really been seeking groups of people that are more like-minded, because I don’t know how you feel, but like I work by myself. I don’t work in an office. Sure. I have a team, I have teams of people like all over, but we’re not together. And that was really hard. That’s been really difficult for me over the past like few years. So it’s like, trying to find people.


Patrick: Yeah, yeah. I think like the other thing, at least for me, I think people have their preferences, but the fantasy of like a solo entrepreneur working by themselves remotely from anywhere in the world is cool for about like six months or something like this. Like, I swear you need human connection of some sort to survive. It doesn’t get you as quickly as thirst or hunger, but it gets to you.


Tiffany: It does, yeah. It’s a slow killer.


Patrick: Yeah, I guess so. Right. And it’s also symptomatic of just the way things are set up in a modern world, because I guess the point is, though, just because you can survive off a laptop and high speed internet in an apartment alone doesn’t mean you should. We just now have that capability technologically speaking, but it doesn’t mean it is neither natural nor productive.


Tiffany: Yeah, well, I’m actually right now, I’m trying to do a lot of things. I’m trying to get a lot of new projects off the ground. And I am fully learning and appreciating the value of having an in-house team. Because, you know, like, I’m working with people around different time zones. We’re like, okay, like talk on the phone, like, you know, once and then like, you have to work on stuff and then talk on the phone again. And I’m like, “Wow, if we were just all together, we would have this thing launched already.” We could work 24 hours a day on this and just get it done, which is something I could and would do. I don’t…I just don’t mind working all the time.


Patrick: Quote of the year for any startup founders, “I don’t mind working all the time.”


Tiffany: I love it.


Patrick: Yeah, it’s fun.


Tiffany: I love work. So I’m really realizing the value of having like people that I’m in the same room with. I’m like, “Oh, I get it now.” Whereas before, I’m like, “No, let’s be remote, everybody could do what they want, work on your own time.” And now I’m like, “I want people.”


Patrick: I think it also depends what stage of life you’re into, to be fair, because I know I gave like a pretty strong endorsement of in-house teams. But I could imagine, like, you know, when you have a family, and you need to spend time at home, and that sort of thing, it’s probably good to have a team that’s a little bit more distributed and doesn’t hinge on you as much in a really sort of personal way. But, yeah, I mean, if you have the inclination, like all of the things equal, I would say in-house teams are better if only for like the million little subtle pieces of communication that you don’t get still on web, the text is getting good, no doubt, but still those million little body language things, the mmhs and the uhs, and the tics, and the breathing, and the body language, all that stuff can accelerate progress. And you can get the mood of the room. My team, like we could be working in the office and I could tell if we’re having a good day or not and no one has to say anything. It’s just I know from the hunches in the chair, or the breathing or, the, you know, just the mood, right? And it’s indescribable how you can pick up on the mood, you couldn’t write about it in words, but you know if things are going well or not.


And again, I guess even to translate the same idea of feeling the feeling and then letting it register first so you can do something about it. You can do that in groups as well. So you can take the temperature of a room and act accordingly. Is there something you’re avoiding? Are you avoiding the difficult conversation with the person across the hall because…and that’s what’s causing the doubt, like the emotional sort of down and through the power outage? Is it that, you know, there’s a comp issue or, you know, just something wrong with the product. There’s something there, right? And so I guess it’s more in the ether when it’s remote, and it’s harder to address those things as well. Again, just my take and from a certain point in time, like I may feel differently in another five years, but that’s kind of where I’m at right now.


Tiffany: I’m gonna wrap us up for…yeah, well, we’re reaching about an hour, but I wanted to ask you a few more questions. How do you manage your time?


Patrick: Are you sure we’re wrapping soon? What’s a five minute signal?


Tiffany: My mom just put her ear today whole in.


Patrick: The staff said you couldn’t be in the pod but they didn’t say anything about listening through the crack in the pod.


Tiffany: Exactly. She always finds a way.


Patrick: Love finds away. Love and moms both find a way.


Tiffany: Love and moms.


Patrick: So what was the question? Oh, time management. I’m becoming more a fan of schedules and routinizing the stuff. Used to be, again, maybe yeah, maybe there is a trend with age of going less artistic and more corporate, so to speak, but yeah, I’ve been regimenting time a little bit more especially in the last few months. Yeah, so I wake up at the same time, exercise at the same time, work the same hours, lunch at the same time, and then eliminate so many decisions that you would have otherwise had to make and so you’re sort of like on rails instead of working freely. There’s a reason trains can go like super, super fast, like in Japan, they go like super fast it’s because they’re on the track and they know exactly where it is that they need to go with no stops in between, right? So there’s a reason bullet trains exist, but cars are a little bit more flexible, you know, they can stop and start and whenever. Neither is wrong or right, I think it depends on work style, but I’m becoming a little bit more of a fan of time management via habit building.


Tiffany: So what has been like either a productivity hack, or like a time management hack, or routine, like something that’s been a habit that has allowed you to be more of a bullet train than a car? Loving your analogies today, by the way, like spot on.


Patrick: Forever and ever analogies. If you talk in pictures they stick.


Tiffany: How have you been able to make the shift in your habits?


Patrick: Right. Very cool. Yeah.


Mom: It’s a really…


Tiffany: …key to a lot of things.


Patrick: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s kind of the same as we’re talking about with happiness. Like if you just decide, like just this moment, just decide that you’re gonna be a happy person, you will be instantly probably 20% to 30% happier just based on that decision alone, that personal contract, social contracts, solidify it even more. So similarly, when it comes to routines, I was just thinking that I’ll set alarms on my phone. So if you scroll down, there’s an alarm for various hours, I think there’s probably like six, seven of them. You wake up in the morning, exercise first thing, just to wake the body up. So I’ll run and I’ll run to the office, and we start. And then I don’t eat until 2:00. If I eat I get a little bit sluggish, a little tired, so I’ll eat later in the day and do good work from 9:00 to 2:00.


Tiffany: Do you run with water bottles?


Patrick: No.


Tiffany: On one of our calls, I was like, oh, what kind of beverage do you drink? Because Patrick doesn’t drink coffee. And he’s like, “Oh, no, no beverages. Like I just…you know, I come with bottles of water every day for work.” And now he’s telling me he runs to work. So I’m wondering if he’s running with his water bottles.


Patrick: We have water at work at the office. Yeah, we’re seriously debating a water cooler right now, we’re slowly making some upgrades.


Tiffany: They just got a coffee machine.


Patrick: Yeah, we did too. Yeah, for every milestone we get like some sort of upgrade. And yeah, and so we’re at 2:00 and you ate, and then I put on like more human conversations and stuff in the afternoon. Things that don’t require maybe as much analysis…less analysis, more empathy and understanding in the afternoon after you’ve had some food. And I exercise again, and go back to work for a little bit and then call it a day 10:00, 11:00 at night, something like that. That’s sort of the formula that I’m running these days. And just by default, it carries over to weekends and you just can’t stop waking up at a certain time anymore after a while.


Tiffany: She’s the cutest?


Patrick: This is all I’ve seen.


Tiffany: We have a photographer in the building.


Patrick: And surprisingly professional pod. It’s been good.


Tiffany: Yeah, yeah. It’s like a recording studio in here. What do you do when you don’t know the answer to something?


Patrick: I think about why I don’t know the answer. And sometimes you actually do know the answer, and you don’t want to admit it. So that’s one route. Like it’s like an uncomfortable truth. But you do know the answer. You can suss it out that way, or you factually don’t know the answer, and then you need to do some research. It’s one of those two things. Doing research is not hard. Admitting an uncomfortable truth is hard.


Tiffany: So maybe if it’s like tougher, you’re like, I like tougher to find the answer. You’re like, I gotta dig. Maybe I have to come to terms with something.


Patrick: I think so. Yeah, because I realized also the hard work is not the hours or the tactics. It’s actually emotional labor of difficult decisions, and it’s mostly social stuff. Yeah. And again, we should do this in like, a year, three years just to see where we are on these issues, because it’s constantly evolving, but that’s what I think. Yeah. So your question is, if I don’t know the answer, maybe you do know the answer. Maybe you do. And it’s just hard to admit. And if that is also not the case, then you do just need to get the information. I forget whose quote it was, but there’s a good one where it’s like, basically, it’s not your responsibility to have the answer, but it is your responsibility to go out and find it. So you don’t need to have it natively in skull, but it’s your responsibility to get it in skull.


Tiffany: Yeah, I like that. I like that. Awesome. I think that’s a great place to end. We gotta drive back to Buffalo and hop on a flight tonight. But I really appreciate you recording, but I also like in general really appreciate you.


Patrick: Thanks.


Tiffany: Like I feel like you’re…I don’t know, I love your company, I love what you’re doing, I love what you stand for, I love the service you provide. I’m huge on service like, huge on service. And yeah, is there anything else you’d like to say any like closing words or statements? This episode has been brought to you by AsteroidX. Just please hold for this quick advertisement.


Patrick: Okay. That was pretty good. However, I would…yeah, yeah. I guess being honest with yourself, being truthful, and super transparent with the facts. Thank you. Ray Dalio is a good way to operate, I think. And the answer is also gonna be different for every person, I think. It’s not just if you hear advice, and you’ll hear the contrary advice the week later. It’s not about which one is right, it’s about which one is right for you. So read the label before consuming. And thanks so much to you guys for coming out. Like I know it’s your first time here in Toronto, unfortunately, we did treat you to a naked bike parade earlier. We were just on the street at the intersection of Yonge & Bloor, and just a bunch of naked cyclists came by. It wasn’t a protest. I think it was just for fun.


Tiffany: Mostly male.


Patrick: Canadians, mostly male. Sorry.


Tiffany: I think mom is traumatized.


Patrick: So obviously, those people were just being true to themselves, so can’t fault them for it.


Tiffany: I enjoyed it. That was my first time seeing a naked bike parade. I live in New York City, you’d thought that, you know, I’d seen one of those before.


Patrick: No, Canadians, we’ve got a wild side.


Tiffany: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I can’t wait to talk to you again in, you know, one to three to five years to see where you are. I’m really grateful that I know you, and I’m excited to keep our relationship going and see like where we both go. And like, hopefully we can lift each other up. But yeah, I’m really excited about what you’re doing. And you guys, Patrick is badass. He really didn’t even give you all his background, but maybe we’ll save that for another day. And anyways, yeah, thanks for coming on the show. I’m really glad I got to meet you. And we’ll talk to you again soon.

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